Comments on: Learn to ride – what’s about to change? http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/ For those that live, eat, sleep "motorcycle"... Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:23:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Hedonist666 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-157 Hedonist666 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:49:25 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-157 If you refer to statistics and crash tests, you will find that the larger vehicle in an accident is less likely to sustain serious damage than the smaller vehicle. A modern SUV is more likely to protect its passengers rather than a scooter/motorcycle or even your average small car. I'm sorry your friend was killed in an accident with a motorcyclist (did he live btw or was he killed as well?), but surely that sort of outcome is the exception rather than the rule. If you refer to statistics and crash tests, you will find that the larger vehicle in an accident is less likely to sustain serious damage than the smaller vehicle. A modern SUV is more likely to protect its passengers rather than a scooter/motorcycle or even your average small car. I’m sorry your friend was killed in an accident with a motorcyclist (did he live btw or was he killed as well?), but surely that sort of outcome is the exception rather than the rule.

]]> By: Hedonist666 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-156 Hedonist666 Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:44:42 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-156 Wonderful, a debate. If you look at when that post was written, it's been a while. What I wrote was based on talking to instructors at the riding school where I trained to pass my test (shortly before the new one was introduced - and as I said, they felt it was too difficult. Perhaps now they've relaxed the requirements?) and articles covering the same topic elsewhere. I have not taken this test personally, so it's helpful to hear from someone who has. The point I was trying to make was, the old test already required the new rider to do certain manoeuvres showing that he/she has decent control of the bike. If the only difference between the old test and the new test is that you need to turn up twice, and do not obstruct traffic with slow speed U turns and such because that part of the test is done off road, great! But when the news of the new test came out, it did not sound like that at all! The test I took wasn't a walk in the park, it did demand certain skill, so to think that before the new test came along you could pass even if you couldn't ride properly is just silly. The stories that were going around short before / during the transition period to the new test were that most test centres were ill equipped to handle the off road part (too small, not enough space to speed up on smaller bikes) and that especially swerving wasn't necessarily a great idea on certain road surfaces at the speeds suggested if god forbid it should rain. I remember reading on MCN that one of the first people to attempt the new test went down because it had been raining and the test area was muddy. Whether or not that means he wasn't a good rider is a different story - even experienced riders may skid and lose control in some conditions. Add to that the fact that you need to pay for two tests instead of one, and extra training to get everything right, motorcycles become less accessible as a mode of transport and encourage people to try and avoid them. I take your point of riding for a while after having done your CBT, that's a great idea indeed if you know what you're doing. I did my CBT, then a short course about 1.5 months later to prepare me for the test. But I already had experience of riding a two wheeler in another country so I wasn't a total novice. People who just do a course starting with their CBT on one day and finishing a few days later after intensive training and doing their test immediately cannot possibly gain a lot of experience over such a short time period. But the flip side is that someone who has done a CBT, hasn't actually passed any test at all, whether theory or practical, and is let loose on the road on something that is potentially quite a fast machine. Regarding cars - I remember learning to drive myself, it was absolutely nerve wrecking having to go out on to the road in a fairly congested area when you've barely got the hang of how the gears and clutch work. Add on the fact that for some bizarre reason it's acceptable in this country to park on both sides of the road, meaning only one car can pass at a time, rather than obstruct the poor pedestrians by parking on the kerb, it's a recipe for disaster. If the facility existed to go off road somewhere onto a track where learners could practice how to operate the car without having to worry about having impatient people tailgating them, I certainly would've made use of it. But this doesn't exist, and I suppose a lot of places wouldn't have the space to create such a track either. The truth is, nowadays it's a prerequisite to have a driving license for a lot of jobs, or if you live in a place with less than perfect public transport. Do you want to create a country where getting a license is only within reach of those who are well off by piling on more tests (fees), extra lessons, and travel to the needed off road test facilities? Though one thing I will say, it is absolutely ridiculous that nobody teaches you motorway driving here. Elsewhere in Europe it is part of the learning process, here you just "have a go" after getting your pass certificate, or shell out more money for an advanced driving course. Wonderful, a debate. If you look at when that post was written, it’s been a while. What I wrote was based on talking to instructors at the riding school where I trained to pass my test (shortly before the new one was introduced – and as I said, they felt it was too difficult. Perhaps now they’ve relaxed the requirements?) and articles covering the same topic elsewhere. I have not taken this test personally, so it’s helpful to hear from someone who has. The point I was trying to make was, the old test already required the new rider to do certain manoeuvres showing that he/she has decent control of the bike. If the only difference between the old test and the new test is that you need to turn up twice, and do not obstruct traffic with slow speed U turns and such because that part of the test is done off road, great! But when the news of the new test came out, it did not sound like that at all! The test I took wasn’t a walk in the park, it did demand certain skill, so to think that before the new test came along you could pass even if you couldn’t ride properly is just silly. The stories that were going around short before / during the transition period to the new test were that most test centres were ill equipped to handle the off road part (too small, not enough space to speed up on smaller bikes) and that especially swerving wasn’t necessarily a great idea on certain road surfaces at the speeds suggested if god forbid it should rain. I remember reading on MCN that one of the first people to attempt the new test went down because it had been raining and the test area was muddy. Whether or not that means he wasn’t a good rider is a different story – even experienced riders may skid and lose control in some conditions. Add to that the fact that you need to pay for two tests instead of one, and extra training to get everything right, motorcycles become less accessible as a mode of transport and encourage people to try and avoid them.

I take your point of riding for a while after having done your CBT, that’s a great idea indeed if you know what you’re doing. I did my CBT, then a short course about 1.5 months later to prepare me for the test. But I already had experience of riding a two wheeler in another country so I wasn’t a total novice. People who just do a course starting with their CBT on one day and finishing a few days later after intensive training and doing their test immediately cannot possibly gain a lot of experience over such a short time period. But the flip side is that someone who has done a CBT, hasn’t actually passed any test at all, whether theory or practical, and is let loose on the road on something that is potentially quite a fast machine.

Regarding cars – I remember learning to drive myself, it was absolutely nerve wrecking having to go out on to the road in a fairly congested area when you’ve barely got the hang of how the gears and clutch work. Add on the fact that for some bizarre reason it’s acceptable in this country to park on both sides of the road, meaning only one car can pass at a time, rather than obstruct the poor pedestrians by parking on the kerb, it’s a recipe for disaster. If the facility existed to go off road somewhere onto a track where learners could practice how to operate the car without having to worry about having impatient people tailgating them, I certainly would’ve made use of it. But this doesn’t exist, and I suppose a lot of places wouldn’t have the space to create such a track either. The truth is, nowadays it’s a prerequisite to have a driving license for a lot of jobs, or if you live in a place with less than perfect public transport. Do you want to create a country where getting a license is only within reach of those who are well off by piling on more tests (fees), extra lessons, and travel to the needed off road test facilities? Though one thing I will say, it is absolutely ridiculous that nobody teaches you motorway driving here. Elsewhere in Europe it is part of the learning process, here you just “have a go” after getting your pass certificate, or shell out more money for an advanced driving course.

]]> By: Peter http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-155 Peter Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:25:28 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-155 ...and another thing: "what damage is a motorcycle going to do to the other party?" A friend of mine was killed a few weeks back when they were hit by a motorcycle. So your whole argument is simply not valid. "Common sense is dying out it seems…" Too right. It sounds like yours has gone completely! …and another thing:

“what damage is a motorcycle going to do to the other party?”

A friend of mine was killed a few weeks back when they were hit by a motorcycle. So your whole argument is simply not valid.

“Common sense is dying out it seems…”

Too right. It sounds like yours has gone completely!

]]> By: Peter http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-154 Peter Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:21:22 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-154 Hi, Having just taken and passed my Mod 1 test this morning, I completely disagree with your conclusion. Looking at your comments in turn: "not only is the level of expertise they demand extremely high and unreasonable for a new rider" Not at all. I am convinced that if you can't pass the Mod 1 test you aren't safe to be riding on the roads. Sure, it's easy to fail by making a stupid mistake, but that's the whole point. Just look at each of the manoeuvres in turn and you will see that there is not one of them that is by any definition difficult. In any case, there's no reason why you have to take the test as a new rider. I rode on a CBT for 18 months before taking my Mod 1. Of course, if you're in a hurry to get onto a big proper bike, then you might fail. Maybe that's not a bad thing? "also do some of the minimum speed requirements exclude certain lower cc vehicles from even being used for the test (In a limited space, get to 32mph and swerve to avoid an obstacle stop without riding off the course!)" In practice, most people taking the test will be on a 125cc (I believe the minimum is 70cc, and who buys a 100cc bike these days?). If you aren't capable of getting to 32mph (in what is actually quite a big space), carrying out a fairly gentle swerve (and it really isn't hard), and stopping (and it's not an emergency stop), then you aren't competent. "One of the slow speed manoeuvres involves for instance riding your bike in first gear while the examiner walks around the course at varying speeds, and you’re supposed to stay next to him at his pace throughout." Rubbish. That just isn't true. The part you are referring to involves the examiner walking at a normal pace for about 10m, and all you're asked to do is not overtake. If you can't do that, you can't ride in traffic. So you're not competent. If there is anyone who decides not to take their test on the basis of Mod 1 being "too difficult", I think that'd be a good thing; because if you find it hard, you're not ready to ride on the roads. And as for David's comment: "As things are, it looks likley I will be a 125 rider for ever more. I now have to pass not one test - but four: CBT, Theory, Off-road practical and on-road practical." Most people will need a CBT to ride a 125 anyway, plus they'll have to retake it every 2 years if they don't pass the others in the meantime. The Theory is laughably easy (anyone who fails that should be banned from riding and driving for life!). The on-road practical is now easier as you don't have to do the slow-speed manoeuvres/emergency stop/etc. So the only change is that you have to go to the test centre twice instead of once. Big deal. If that puts you off riding, I'd suggest you were never really keen on the idea in the first place. I think the Mod 1 is a great idea and I personally thing that they should do the same with cars; to avoid clutting up the roads with people doing the slow-speed parts of their tests. And while we're about it why not mandate that new learners should be forced to meet a certain standard off road before being allowed on the road? Like a CBT for drivers, really. All this pathetic bleating about the Mod 1 is simply people not using their brains. Think about it; what's best, getting people to do an emergency stop on the road, or off it? Isn't it obvious? Rgds, Peter Hi,

Having just taken and passed my Mod 1 test this morning, I completely disagree with your conclusion.

Looking at your comments in turn:

“not only is the level of expertise they demand extremely high and unreasonable for a new rider”

Not at all. I am convinced that if you can’t pass the Mod 1 test you aren’t safe to be riding on the roads. Sure, it’s easy to fail by making a stupid mistake, but that’s the whole point. Just look at each of the manoeuvres in turn and you will see that there is not one of them that is by any definition difficult.

In any case, there’s no reason why you have to take the test as a new rider. I rode on a CBT for 18 months before taking my Mod 1. Of course, if you’re in a hurry to get onto a big proper bike, then you might fail. Maybe that’s not a bad thing?

“also do some of the minimum speed requirements exclude certain lower cc vehicles from even being used for the test (In a limited space, get to 32mph and swerve to avoid an obstacle stop without riding off the course!)”

In practice, most people taking the test will be on a 125cc (I believe the minimum is 70cc, and who buys a 100cc bike these days?). If you aren’t capable of getting to 32mph (in what is actually quite a big space), carrying out a fairly gentle swerve (and it really isn’t hard), and stopping (and it’s not an emergency stop), then you aren’t competent.

“One of the slow speed manoeuvres involves for instance riding your bike in first gear while the examiner walks around the course at varying speeds, and you’re supposed to stay next to him at his pace throughout.”

Rubbish. That just isn’t true. The part you are referring to involves the examiner walking at a normal pace for about 10m, and all you’re asked to do is not overtake. If you can’t do that, you can’t ride in traffic. So you’re not competent.

If there is anyone who decides not to take their test on the basis of Mod 1 being “too difficult”, I think that’d be a good thing; because if you find it hard, you’re not ready to ride on the roads.

And as for David’s comment: “As things are, it looks likley I will be a 125 rider for ever more. I now have to pass not one test – but four: CBT, Theory, Off-road practical and on-road practical.”

Most people will need a CBT to ride a 125 anyway, plus they’ll have to retake it every 2 years if they don’t pass the others in the meantime. The Theory is laughably easy (anyone who fails that should be banned from riding and driving for life!). The on-road practical is now easier as you don’t have to do the slow-speed manoeuvres/emergency stop/etc. So the only change is that you have to go to the test centre twice instead of once. Big deal. If that puts you off riding, I’d suggest you were never really keen on the idea in the first place.

I think the Mod 1 is a great idea and I personally thing that they should do the same with cars; to avoid clutting up the roads with people doing the slow-speed parts of their tests. And while we’re about it why not mandate that new learners should be forced to meet a certain standard off road before being allowed on the road? Like a CBT for drivers, really.

All this pathetic bleating about the Mod 1 is simply people not using their brains. Think about it; what’s best, getting people to do an emergency stop on the road, or off it? Isn’t it obvious?

Rgds,

Peter

]]> By: Hedonist666 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-137 Hedonist666 Wed, 02 Jun 2010 09:40:20 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-137 Hi David, indeed I have. Been absolutely swamped with work & DIY (recently moved house). To be honest I haven't done any riding even, except for a short weekend trip to Cornwall (does being a pillion count?) :-) About those new plans - that does sound horrible. No doubt thought up by a bunch of pencil pushers who have never even seen a bike up close. The one thing I never understood about people shouting it's so dangerous to ride a bike is they seem to forget that yes - it's risky, but mainly for the person riding it. As opposed to someone ploughing into another road user while driving a huge SUV, what damage is a motorcycle going to do to the other party? Common sense is dying out it seems... Hi David, indeed I have. Been absolutely swamped with work & DIY (recently moved house).
To be honest I haven’t done any riding even, except for a short weekend trip to Cornwall (does being a pillion count?) :-)
About those new plans – that does sound horrible. No doubt thought up by a bunch of pencil pushers who have never even seen a bike up close. The one thing I never understood about people shouting it’s so dangerous to ride a bike is they seem to forget that yes – it’s risky, but mainly for the person riding it. As opposed to someone ploughing into another road user while driving a huge SUV, what damage is a motorcycle going to do to the other party? Common sense is dying out it seems…

]]> By: David http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-133 David Wed, 05 May 2010 08:59:21 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-133 Hey Hedonist - you've been very quiet of late. And it's riding season again. And the EU are about to make the test EVEN HARDER with three new categories of test to be able to ride low power, mid power and decent horsepower bikes. Want a bigger bike - take another test. Kiss goodbye to young riders, say ta-ra to your local bike shop and watch biking become the total preserve of old fogey's who passed their test before the Health & Safety Mafia took control and now have to keep ever older machines on the road with scrounged ebay parts. Hey Hedonist – you’ve been very quiet of late. And it’s riding season again. And the EU are about to make the test EVEN HARDER with three new categories of test to be able to ride low power, mid power and decent horsepower bikes. Want a bigger bike – take another test.
Kiss goodbye to young riders, say ta-ra to your local bike shop and watch biking become the total preserve of old fogey’s who passed their test before the Health & Safety Mafia took control and now have to keep ever older machines on the road with scrounged ebay parts.

]]> By: Hedonist666 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-20 Hedonist666 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:17:05 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-20 @Ex Back - No never have, probably never will. I simply don't have the time ;) Thanks for commenting though @JareGrIerse - Great, thanks for stopping by! @Ex Back – No never have, probably never will. I simply don’t have the time ;) Thanks for commenting though

@JareGrIerse – Great, thanks for stopping by!

]]> By: JareGrIerse http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-19 JareGrIerse Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:42:28 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-19 I’ll share it on Twitter. I’ll share it on Twitter.

]]> By: Ex Back http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-16 Ex Back Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:14:54 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-16 The style of writing is very familiar . Did you write guest posts for other bloggers? The style of writing is very familiar . Did you write guest posts for other bloggers?

]]> By: Hedonist666 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/04/general/learn-to-ride-whats-about-to-change/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Hedonist666 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:12:26 +0000 http://www.ridehard.co.uk/?p=132#comment-15 How's that? How’s that?

]]>